Well, the following hit my doorstep: Correct Your French Blunders (Mazet); An Introduction to French Pronunciation (Price); French Grammar (Kendris); and the complete set of Pronounce it Perfectly in French (Kendris).
Lovely! I may actually get somewhere with this language now. I look forward to being good enough to read Le Scaphandre et le Papillon (easy) and La Peste (hard); both of which are sitting on my bookshelf waiting for me. Not to mention the audio book of La Peste read by Christian Gonon. I want to be able to read them aloud, well enough to be clearly understood, and with expression.
Needless to say a stack of books about three miles high now awaits me, on my bookshelves, from all these languages I am studying. The only thing I have not ordered is the rare, out-of-print book about the Mondial language, a language similar to Interlingua, approximately halfway between the highly naturalistic Interlingua and the somewhat more schematic Interlingue Occidental. Sooner or later temptation will get the better of me and I'll order the Mondial book. It will be interesting to see how long I hold out...
Which brings me to Interlingua. Okay, I've been reading a little of Le defuncte Mattia Pascal (a novel by Pirandello, translated from the Italian) and Cinque aventuras de Sherlock Holmes (short stories). Both in hardcopy, of course. That is, actual books which one holds and not just electrons on a computer screen. Lovely. Look, it's a pleasure. Interlingua is fun to read. It's just a wee bit too difficult and needs just a wee bit of improvement, as previously discussed. It's almost there. Almost. That is, in the market segment it occupies.
Because it is a bit too tiring to read Interlingua in its traditional form, we just need to jazz it up a little to make it easier. Apart from adopting the simpler but still official collateral orthography (ortografia colateral), I am also marking irregular stress (ortografía colateral), and using official, collateral forms of the irregular verb "to be", esser (namely era, será, seréa and the imperative sia).
All right. Okay. So far so good.
But... not enough.
Further change is needed. Now, whether the following experimental practices mean I am no longer using Interlingua, and therefore should not refer to it as Interlingua but rather by some other name, I will leave to others to judge. Should anybody complain I will just invent another name. However I would urge you not to complain too loudly. My intentions are good. Also, I am just experimenting. Finally, who cares anyway? I am just one insignificant writer.
With that said, here I go...
Reading the Sherlock Holmes stories aloud I realise that Interlingua is, compared to English, a little too hard too read aloud due to its great verbosity. Words are sometimes excessively long. And there are far too many Es on the ends of words here there and everywhere. The biggest problems here are habeva, the past tense of "to have", which is very commonly used to form perfect tenses, -mente, the adverbial suffix, and -e, the common suffix on many adjectives. Put these things together and you have text which: is slower to read out loud than English; is more difficult to read out loud than English; yet is no more recognisable unless your first language happens to be Spanish, Portuguese or Italian (SPI).
In English, -mente would be -ly; in French, -ment. I see no reason why -men could not be a reasonable and permissible alternative if our aim is to preserve the spirit of Interlingua while using it with a vastly easier orthography and more concise, easier pronunciation. Here I am paying the price of loosing some recognisability to SPI speakers, and also slightly changing the pronunciation, but the benefit is we gain a lot of ground for speakers of English, French and other languages. Because reading becomes quicker: less seconds per paragraph and less effort required, less tiring physically to read.
Teamed up with this, in addition to the official collateral orthography rules for dropping the -e off the end of words finishing in T preceded by a vowel (et cetera), I believe in addition that -e needs to be dropped off the end of most adjectives except where the E is preceded by a vowel or by certain consonants (that is, there will be some entirely regular exceptions). Not having to vocalise all those Es makes sentences quicker and easier to read; again we lose some recognisability here when spoken aloud to SPI speakers but we gain massively when spoken aloud to anybody else. Also, we are just subtly becoming more like standardized English, just enough more distant from natural Romance languages to perhaps reduce the "drift" and keep the language intact. Which brings me to the next point...
I think we need a tiny hint, a tiny twist, just a little seasoning, just a pinch... of Germanic flavour. Just enough, again, to make SPI speakers constantly remember that Interlingua is also based of English, French, German and Russian. Remember, guys, this is an international language. Where is the German? Where is the Russian? Okay, here goes...
For the past tense of haber we need hat or some similar very short, very concise, very easy-to-say, and just-a-little-Germanic word. The present tense, ha, is excellent. The future tense, haberá, is tolerable but lengthy. The conditional, haberéa, is extremely useful and more concise than other grammatical alternatives which would require two or three words instead of one. But the past tense, habeva, really grates. It is too long, too verbose, makes forming perfect tenses too clunky; it is just too heavyweight a word for one of the most frequently used words in the language. With really frequently used words it is okay to be a little irregular. And if you actually check the source languages of Interlingua they have little or no agreement about what the past tense of the verb "to have" should be, other than a vague preference for ending with -a and maybe having a V somewhere near the end and maybe having an H somewhere near the start. But it is a very weak correlation. I'm sorry but habeva is too verbose a solution to fly for modern literary use. I'm not sure exactly what the best word is but, until I can think of something better, I'm going to use hat. Consider it a place-holder word. It will do for now.
Note: I am not aiming for a pure, schematic, extreme solution. I am aiming for a middle ground and to generally remain true to the spirit of Interlingua. Hence I choose to keep -ss- and -tion since these I believe greatly increase the internationality and recognisability of words to non-SPI speakers and are also etymologically important. The former spelling can be deduced upon hearing a word; the latter cannot but usually can be safely guessed.
Okay, so let's itemise my heresy:
WARNING: This system has been superseded.
This information is out of date.
The latest system is described in a more recent post.
(1) Adopt the official collateral orthography and official collateral forms of esser except those forms which represent conjugation for person. Fine, nothing heretical about that. These are officially approved alternatives.
(2) Replace -mente with -men. Also, the addition of the suffix -men does not change the stressed syllable of the base word; that is, unlike -mente, the suffix -men is never stressed; accordingly whatever is the normally stressed syllable of the word to which -men is being added takes an acute accent to indicate stress, as per (5). Heresy 1
(3) On many but not all adjectives, with regular exceptions (not after vowels and not after certain consonants such as -c-,-d-,-m-,-er-), drop the final -e. This however never applies to nouns except those already covered by (1) and never applies to adverbs, if any, which end in -e (don't forget we have already dispensed with -mente above, which becomes -men). Note that this combined with (1)(2)(5) means that brillantemente becomes brilántmen. Incidentally, that is about as ugly as I am prepared to make words. Clearly the former is more recognisable but, in this case, it is just way way way too long. The stressed syllable remains the same as in the original, traditional Interlingua word before the -e was removed; for example, frágil not fragíl. And, of course, according to (5) this is optionally marked with an acute accent. Heresy 2
(4) Replace habeva with hat (or a similarly short word). Heresy 3
(5) Optionally, at the discretion of the writer, make it correct to mark all irregular stress with an acute accent. That is, any word of two syllables or more which is not stressed on the vowel before the last consonant; the other regular stress rules are way too hard to remember. Heresy 4
(6) Since the official collateral orthography causes a collision between Il ha (he has) and Il ha (there is), a new word must be found for the latter. I will research the source languages to find an alternative. Heresy 5
The rest of the language can stay the same. It's already very good.
Unfortunately all this will be a pain as I will have to make my own supplement to the Interlingua-English Dictionary to assist readers to find words as they read them. But I can live with that.
And that's about it. Very minor changes but hugely easier.
Sample of Traditional Interlingua
Pro Sherlock Holmes illa es sempre le femina. Io le ha rarmente audite mentionar la sub un altere nomine...
Omne emotiones, e particularmente iste, era abhorribile pro su mente frigide, precise, ma admirabilemente balanciate. Ille era, io pensa, le machina rationante e observante le plus perfecte que le mundo ha vidite...
... e finalmente que ille habeva si delicate- e successosemente complite un mission pro le familia regnante de Hollanda.
... io retornava de un viage a un patiente (nam io habeva nunc retornate a practica civil)...
Su cameras era brillantemente illuminate...
Sample of Modified Interlingua
Pro Sherlock Holmes ila es sempre le fémina. Io le ha rármen audit mentionar la sub un altere nomine...
Omne emotiones, e particulármen iste, era abhoríbil pro su mente frigid, precis, ma admirábilmen balanciat. Il era, io pensa, le machina rationant e observant le plus perfect que le mundo ha vidit...
... e finálmen que il hat si delicátmen e con successo complit un mission pro le familia regnant de Holanda.
... io retornava de un viage a un patiente (nam io hat nunc retornat a practica civil)...
Su cámeras era brilántmen iluminat...
Original English
To Sherlock Holmes she is always the woman. I have seldom heard him mention her under any other name...
All emotions, and that one particularly, were abhorrent to his cold, precise but admirably balanced mind. He was, I take it, the most perfect reasoning and observing machine that the world has seen...
... and finally of the mission which he had accomplished so delicately and successfully for the reigning family of Holland.
... I was returning from a journey to a patient (for I had now returned to civil practice)...
His rooms were brilliantly lit...
By the way, Sambahsa, Frenkisch, and Lingwa de Planeta translations of the above would be greatly appreciated, if anyone feels so inclined. I imagine these literary phrases would look great in any and all of those languages but unfortunately I currently lack the required skill.
Please bear in mind all of the above is experimental. However it does indicate the general direction in which I wish to march. A dialect with the exact same grammar as Interlingua in principle but mapped to slightly different orthographical forms and with slightly different pronunciation; the intention is to retain the character and spirit of Interlingua while become just a little less heavyweight, just a little quicker and easier to read and to spell, and just a little more like English in not having every second word end in -e. It's not just about making it easier for English speakers, either; I am thinking essentially about anyone who is not an SPI speaker. SPI speakers can still reasonably understand this dialect but it is way easier for everybody else. For example, once you have looked at Indonesian or even just Spanish orthography it is hard to take traditional Interlingua seriously as a competitor; people in Asia would probably just learn Indonesian instead and the rest of us would probably just learn Spanish instead. We need to give Interlingua orthography an edge, a small advantage. Making it just a little easier to read and write, and a tiny bit less Italian when pronounced, I think gives it the edge it needs.
Remember, for me personally Interlingua has to clearly out-perform Indonesian, Afrikaans, and indeed French otherwise I will just adopt one of those natural languages for my international writing instead.
Onward...
I think you're going to end your long linguistic journey by learning and using Esperanto. Already you've gone for accented letters!
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, the adverbial form in Esperanto always ends in -e, so instead of finalmente, you get fine (just two syllables). The horrendous successosemente is sukcese in Esperanto.
On balance Esperanto is much easier to learn than Interlingua. I suspect you approached Interlingua with some advance knowledge of either Italian and Spanish.
As you may know, 2012 will be the 125th anniversary of the successful use of Esperanto. No planned language comes near it in terms of literary output. Even eBay has a good market in Esperanto literature.
Weird, while reading this I thought you were preparing to conclude that Occidental was actually what you were looking for. Pretty much everything except ha as present tense of have is a modification towards it.
ReplyDeleteI do like how it distinguishes between have (to have) and have (the auxiliary verb). Yo have - I have, Yo havet - I had, Yo ha havet - I have had, yo hat havet - I had had. Presumably havet havet would be too awkward and have(t) as an auxiliary all the time would make it too long.
I think it's time to order the Mondial book, since from what I can tell it actually is somewhere between Interlingua and Occidental.
Oops, I forgot, last but not least... As I shall be available till the end of this month, don't hesitate to ask me, per mail, any explanation on French if you want.
ReplyDelete(I have just corrected a few typos in the translations)
ReplyDeleteSellamat Robert !
Of course, it is "LA peste", not "LE peste"... In general, many simple French words ending with "e" are feminine (often from Latin"-a").
Here is my Sambahsa rendition of the excerpts from Sherlock Holmes (however, as I don't have the full text, this may not be completely accurate).
- Pro Sherlock Holmes, ia est semper IA gwen. Ho rar-ye aurn iom mentione iam med alyo nam.
- Vasya emotions, ed tod besonters, eent kados eysi srig, precise bet admirable-ye tulat ment. Is eet, kehnso, is perfectst aumend ed observend machine id mund hat aiwo vis.
- ed bad de id mission is hiebit parkwohrto tem delicate-ye ed kamyab-ye pro id regnant familia Hollands.
- Eem reikend ex un agmo bi un patient (ioghi hieb taiper ricto civil bungsa)
- Eys kyals eent bleigu-ye belucen.
I must tell I have thought exactly the same as Dave while reading your arguments:
- Occidental has "-men"
- Occidental accepts a "fonetic ortografie"
- Occidental has "ha(t)" as an auxiliary verb.
- Occidental is less verbose than Interlingua and a little more Germanic.
- Occidental is more regular than Interlingua (especially for the derivation) and indicates the stress when it is necessary.
- Occidental drops many final "e"s
- Occidental has "hay" for "there is"
- Occidental is as/or even more "at-sight" than Interlingua for people knowing a Romance language or English.
So... I think you really should skip to Occidental. There are still a few but active and helpful users (beside Dave and I): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/occidental/
Occidental works; I've just sent a reply in this language to a Russian with whom I haven't used any other conlang or natlang. (and I have done so with a Pole and a Swede)
Here is my translation of the excerpts into Occidental:
-Por Sherlock Holmes, ella es sempre LA fémina. Io ha rarmen audit le mentionar la sub un altri nòmin.
-Omni emotions, e to particulàrimen, esset detestabil a su frigid, precisi ma admirabilmen equilibriat ment. Il esset, io pensa, li max prefect resonant e observanti machin quo li mundie jamà ha videt.
-e finalmen pri li mission quo il hat accompleeti tam delicatmen e successosmen por li faimilie reyenti de Holland.
-Io esset revenient ex un viage che un patient (proque io hat actualmen revenit ad un pràctica civil)
-Su salas esset brilliantmen illuminat.
If you read the ortografia colateral rules for IL fully, you will see that dropping final e is acceptable under certain circumstances.
ReplyDelete"Final e is dropped after t preceded by a vowel except in words which have the stress on the third syllable from the end; e.g. animat, brevitat (for animate, brevitate) but composite. This rule applies likewise to final e after n, l, and r when these consonants are the collateral spelling for nn, ll, and rr; e.g. peren, bel, mel, il, bizar (for perenne, belle, melle, ille, bizarre). Note: Present-tense and imperative forms are not affected by this rule; pote, permite, etc. retain their final -e."
Not sure if I follow the above totally. It seems that although collateral orthography will simplify spelling, the rules on how to "colateralizar" traditionally spelled words is highly complicated.
Swasti!
ReplyDeleteFo Sherlok Holms ela es sempre "SEY GINA". (You see, no problem doing without articles). Rarem me gwo audi ke lu mensioni ela pa koy otre nam. (it's best if the subject and predicate of each clause are clearly marked off, so phrases like "I hear him say" should be rendered as "me audi ke ta shwo", not "me audi ta shwo").
Oli emosion, e toy-la osobem, es nafra-ney a suy lenge, exakte bat astoni-shem balansi-ney menta. Me dumi ke lu es zuy perfekte resoni-she e observi-she mashina ke munda gwo vidi.
...e pa fin om mision ke lu fulfil-te tanto delikatem e sukses-nem fo regi-she familia de Nederland.
...me zai returni fon un pasienta (sikom nau me rifai sivile praktika)...
Suy shambas es yarkem lumisi-ney.
Oda:
Suy shambas brili por luma.
Hao dey kare Dmitry !
ReplyDeleteJust one criticism: Nederland is not the same as Holland ! The Netherlands is the name of the full country, while Holland is the major province (it is like "England" and "UK")
I see you have "shamba"; does this only apply to "sleeping-rooms" ? I had a similar interrogation, since English "rooms" is too vague and can refer to house-parts for any purpose. That's why I used Sambahsa "kyal" and not "kamer".
Now, I see "fulfil"; can't LdP have a compound meaning "to fully do", like Sambahsa "parkwehr" (par + kwehr) ?
How would you translate "To Sherlock Holmes, she was always "the" woman" in Russian, since Russian has no articles ?
Swasti-gro !
Olivier
@Anonymous: Thank you for your comment. Who knows? You may indeed be correct. Perhaps I will return to Esperanto. But if so, definitely not until next year at the earliest. It would be a last resort.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I don't really like Esperanto much. It's not really my literary cup of tea. However, who knows, my opinion could change. If my attempts to learn and use all other constructed languages end up failing, then I will give Esperanto another try. And if I succeed with Esperanto where I failed with the others, fear not: I will certainly let everyone know.
What might happen, if I ever do return to Esperanto, is that Esperanto will then have to prove itself to be easier than Indonesian, otherwise I am likely to use Indonesian instead (another agglutinating language). This indeed is the same test which Interlingua must pass this year. Constructed languages need to be no more difficult than the easiest available major natural languages, otherwise I'm likely to just write in an easy natural language and assume readers can easily learn it.
What is good about Esperanto is that it has relatively good dictionaries and relatively well established idioms, which makes it a good candidate as a fall-back position if all else fails. However I personally prefer the dictionary of Interlingua, which has a much larger number of word roots and is not primarily based upon agglutination. This is a matter of personal taste but also, to some extent, perhaps lesser ambiguity.
@Mithridates: Yes, I am definitely being influenced and inspired by features of Occidental here, but not slavishly. Rather, I just read over the Sherlock Holmes text many times, both silently and aloud, and analysed what was making it slow and difficult to read. It just so happens many of the changes coincide with some features of Occidental. The suggested past tense of "haber", namely "hat", was however something which I took directly from Occidental.
ReplyDeleteHowever, all this is weird of me, as you say. Here's the thing: I know it's hard to believe, but I really have decided (unexpectedly compared to my earlier views) that Interlingua is better suited to my needs as a writer rather than Occidental or indeed even Mondial. In fact, today I went and read the Mondial blog in some detail, analysing the grammar, and I am now finally comfortable that I don't need to order the Mondial book after all. What it boils down to is this:
Occidental and Mondial both look like toy languages and the public won't take them seriously.
Interlingua is naturalistic enough to fly under the radar and maybe be accepted by the public as a "real" language. So my very conscious and intentional choice is Interlingua.
I also acknowledge, however, that Interlingua has ALREADY FAILED. Simply continuing to doggedly use it exactly as it is, with its traditional orthography, will not work. Therefore my very conscious, intentional plan is to use Interlingua but to just simplify it a wee bit. It needs improvement.
For example, even "admirábilmen" is too long, although thank goodness it is shorter than "admirabilemente" (gasp for breath). Left to my own devices I might like to go to something like an "-i" ending for some adverbs, which gives us "admirábili"; as for "successosemente" it is such a ridiculous joke that I would never dream of using it. Mind you, I wouldn't use "successosi" either. Clearly "con successo" is superior. But I digress. Coming back to "admirábili" (admirably similar to English), it would never fly. As soon as the general Romance-language-speaking public see that, it is dismissed as a toy language.
The irritating thing is there are natural languages with more toy-like spelling (like Indonesian, which has such simplified spelling it is a wonderful dream) and everyone accepts that. Natural languages get a free pass. Conlangs do not, sadly. Therefore "admirábilmen" is as far as I can go, I think. Anyway, "-men" is contained within "-mente" (SPI) and "-ment" (French), so I think it is tolerably consistent with Interlingua's naturalism.
It's no surprise that I like Frenkisch too. I think this Interlingua scheme of extracting common vocabulary as naturally as possible really works, even if it leads to strong verbs in Frenkisch which are irregular and require ablaut. So be it. At least the public will not dismiss such languages as toys; and they are more easily comprehended by speakers of similar natural languages. I like Sambahsa for similar reasons; it seems like a totally real language which nobody could scoff at. As a writer one feels safe using such languages.
So, yeah, I know it's kind of weird but I really have come to like Interlingua as my first choice amongst the Romance auxlangs. A HUGE factor in this, of course, is that only it has the big dictionaries and it has the established idioms: a huge head start.
Oh... I nearly forgot. A show stopper for me with Mondial is that all verbs end in "-ar". This for me is a major loss of both naturalism and information; Interlingua's "-er", "-ir", "-ar" encode more information and make it easier to distinguish word roots in my brain. Harder to remember, yes, but also more distinctive. I can hardly believe how my opinions have changed on all this stuff.
O tempora, o mores!
@cafaristeir, Dmitry, David Parke: Thanks everyone for the great comments and translations. All wonderful!
ReplyDeleteThanks, David, for pointing out the collateral rules about dropping "-e". I am aware of them. I wish to go even further and drop it more often. Hence Heresy 2. To ease the complicated mapping between collateral and traditional, I suppose I'm going to have to create a word-list which readers can look up, so they can easily cross-reference to find the traditional spelling for a word, so they can look it up in the IED. If I really get hooked on Interlingua then probably I'll create an online, searchable dictionary and possibly a downloadable one too. This is possible, of course, as I am a software engineer.
Thanks, Olivier, for your kind offer of help. But I will be just doing a little French study here and there for now; I'll get more serious about it as time goes on. One day I will speak and write good French! Such a beautiful language.
A man can dream...
Bonsoir cher Olivier!
ReplyDeleteI've found the Russian text:
http://www.serann.ru/t/t444.html
It uses simply "this woman", like I did. Basically "the" comes from "this" or "that", and you can always use them when needed. Similarly, you can always use "some" or "one" instead of "a", if need be. By the way, Olivier, do Occidental and other articled languages follow all the intricacies of articles' usage in WE languages? For example, do they always put "the" before Sun or Moon?
About the rooms, in the Russian text it's said "His windows were brightly lit", and that makes sense because the hero is looking from outside. LdP's shamba is room in general. What is the difference between kyal and kamer?
Are you sure that the text refers not to the whole country? I ignored the difference, it seems that many do the same.
I recognize the French parfaire in Sambahsa's parkwehr. ISTR that we had a similar prefix but it wasn't indispensable. Often tra- worked: tralekti, trajivi.
Hao nocha!
Dobroe utro, dorogoj Dmitry !
ReplyDeleteSpasibo za perevod ! I suppose that Latin would translate: "Pro Sherlock Holmes, ea semper "illa" femina erat"... (Latin and Russian are sometimes very close.)
IE had neither articles, but I included them in Sambahsa because they allow to recognize immediately nouns within the sentence, without suffixing unnatural endings to words. In conlangs, the usage of articles is not as strict as in natlangs.
I suppose Occidental always say "li Luna", "li Sol". Still yesterday, I received an e-mail in Occidental from a Russian and he could use "li", even if my own usage would be slightly different.
Sambahsa has common names "id meun" ("meun" being an idea of you !) and "id sol" but, if you refer to our own Moon and own Sun, it has (without articles, since they work like persons' names): "Luna" and "Sowel". This distinction comes from my sci-fi translations where there can be different moons and suns.
"Kamer" is only the "sleeping-room" while "kyal" is a room, a house-part in general. Kamer/shamba from Romance/French is very international but may refer only to the sleeping-room from language to language.
I think indeed that the text refers to the whole country, but I wanted to stay closer to the original English text (otherwise, C.Doyle would have said "the Netherlands").
That's funny, but I did not think at "parfaire"; indeed, to translate "parfaire" in Sambahsa, I would make a backformation from the internationally known word "perfect" and get "perfec"...
Hao dey/Khauris juma !
FRENKISCH:
ReplyDeleteTou Sherlock Holmes, is si alltyd de frauw. Selden ha ick heur’d him tou benemme hir mid somme ander nam…
All gefeulen, ond jeine insonderheid, waire afschujlik tou syn kald, precis doch bewonderbarwis balancir’d ferstand, Ick begryp dat hi was de follkomm’nest onderseukend ond merkend maschine, dat de wereld ha erfar’d eimail.
ond endlik, af de anwysing dat he hadd follended so sorgfadligwis ond geluckigwis for de regiring haus af Holland.
…Ick kam tourugg aut en visitiring tou en patient (fordat ick hadd touruggkommen tou civilpraktik)…
Syn kamers waire briljantwis beliechted…
@David Parke: Wonderful Frenkisch translation! Thank you so much for making it. This means we now have the Sherlock Holmes phrases in all my favourite constructed languages: Sambahsa, Frenkisch, Lingwa de Planeta and even Interlingue Occidental as a bonus.
ReplyDeleteVery nice indeed.
By the way, readers should note that one of the great things about Frenkisch, apart from it being rare amongst constructed languages in that it is primarily Germanic rather than Romance-language based (it uses an Interlingua-like method of word derivation based on natural source languages, most of which are Germanic), is that it sounds really great read aloud. Like Sambahsa, it has a Germanic sound to it which is very pleasing. Lots of literary potential here.