IMPORTANT UPDATE: 4 September 2011: I no longer agree with the opinions that I expressed below. In fact, I have chosen to return to Interlingua as it has become my language of first choice in which to read literature! The opinions I expressed below do make sense if you expect (a kind of magical thinking) to be fluent in an auxlang within a few months or a year. But if you accept that to be an unrealistic goal and instead you view learning an auxlang to fluency as a five-year process, then auxlangs based on Romance languages are fine and in fact have many advantages. My frustration and disappointment expressed below were the direct result of my unrealistic expectations of how quickly a language could be learned. Those unrealistic expectations were the result of unwise propaganda from organisations and persons promoting various international auxiliary languages, including speakers of Esperanto and Interlingua, which suggested that rapid fluency was likely. I now think that auxlangs should be promoted as "Five-Year Languages", thus preventing unrealistic expectations and preventing gross disappoinment and disillusionment such as I experienced below. Had I fully understood right from the start that five years are, on average, required to master any of the major auxlangs to fluency, I never would have become disillusioned but rather would have happily continued to make slow progress towards the very worthwhile goal of fluency. In fact, auxlangs based on Romance languages are very advantageous because studying them gives you the advantage of subsequently being able to understand a considerable amount of Spanish, Portuguese and Italian. Moreover they allow you to easily learn and understand scientific terminology, including Latin terms (for example, used to name features on the Moon and on Mars). It simply takes a few years of study to achieve, and that is worthwhile. END OF UPDATE
One of the great challenges of writing this blog is to demand one thing of myself: complete honesty. I have always been of the belief that if I am not honest then this blog is of no value. I think whatever value this blog has is due to its honesty.
Accordingly, I have been willing to make a complete fool of myself in public. Again and again readers have seen me wildly enthusiastic about one language after another only to go on to... get very poor results. You have seen me honestly become enthralled by various languages and then honestly become disappointed by them; you have seen me go through extreme changes of opinion, swinging from one view to another, as I have desperately scrambled to find a language that works for me. Regular readers will know I am a novelist and I am seeking a language suitable for writing international literature in... and I mean novels, not just short stories. Therefore auxlangs which many others find quite acceptable (for general conversation and for writing short articles in magazines) have been unacceptable to me because they are not up to the requirements of writing a good novel (this requires a very large vocabulary, unambiguous grammar, and most importantly the ability to dismantle the idiomatic expressions of natural languages either into unambiguous plain language or into well-established idioms in the auxlang, requirements that very few constructed languages meet... in fact virtually none and certainly not, for example, Interlingua).
Late last year I came to the conclusion that I had completely wasted my time by studying auxlangs and that I wanted my nine months back!
Then, at the eleventh hour, I managed to salvage a literary result by producing a translation into Occidental, eventually of more than 5700 words in length, of the beginning of the great French novel, La Chartreuse de Parme. This translation might even have the benefit of being somewhat comprehensible to some Continental Europeans (but not to most British readers) with perhaps only a few weeks of prior study and access to a dictionary; some especially well educated readers who already speak several European languages might even be able to get the gist of it without any prior study. This is unlike Esperanto, the world's most popular constructed language, which is nearly completely incomprehensible without extensive prior study.
But... so what?
Here's what happened after I published my translation, which was for me a great personal achievement: nothing. About three people congratulated me, on an Occidental-language Yahoo group, where my translation will sit unnoticed for the next ten years gathering dust. This is because there is no active community (other than perhaps a couple of dozen people who sporadically produce very little content in very inconsistent styles and in minor variants of the language, which frankly are not absolutely mutually comprehensible) for the Occidental language. Now, this lack of any truly significant community is a clue. Let's investigate.
Here is a list of the constructed languages with a truly significant community, say more than 1000 users of the language, other than Esperanto:
- none
Hmmm, that's weird. If we have a language with huge dictionaries, as Interlingua has, in which novels have been published, how come it has no significant community of users? Aha. Here is the answer. To save time I will cut straight to the chase and will reveal the secret finding of my one year of study:
Because it does not work. It is gibberish. For the novelist, most auxlangs based on Romance languages are a complete waste of time and, ultimately, are either fundamentally gibberish or too difficult to understand without extensive knowledge of relevant natural languages. Auxlangs based on Romance languages are nearly always not "standalone" languages which one can study on their own without reference to any natural language. This is why nobody, other than a tiny handful of language enthusiasts, uses them (even if you disagree with my conclusions here, the fact remains that no Romance-language auxlang has a truly significant community of users, something which is hard to explain unless my hypothesis here is correct... Romance-language auxlangs do not work).
Here is the best way to communicate internationally using a language which is based on a Romance language or which resembles a Romance language:
Don't. Use a real Romance language instead.
I totally understand now why the auxlang movement has failed, except Esperanto which has had a limited degree of success and actually has a small but significant community of users, maybe a few thousand people around the world. It is because nearly every significant auxlang is based on Romance languages and auxlangs based on Romance languages do not work. If they worked, people would be using them. They don't work.
Why don't they work? Because dumbing down Romance-language grammar produces auxlangs which are inherently ambiguous gibberish despite looking very impressive at first sight and despite in some cases have massive vocabularies. Proper Romance languages (not counting creoles here, to keep the discussion simple) have difficult and complex grammars: that is how they work, and this ultimately inherits from Latin. Furthermore, Romance languages inherently work by virtue of thousands of highly idiomatic expressions, which are unique to each Romance language, and upon which intelligible communication depends. Auxlangs which use Romance-language vocabulary attempt to simplify this and it simply does not work. This is why Interlingua drifts in the direction of the native Romance language of its speaker or writer, becoming at best ambiguous and at worst gibberish to others.
Even Occidental, by far the best of the group for novelists, is too inconsistent among its tiny group of users and quite frankly is too difficult to learn unless you already know two European languages other than English, consisting of one Romance language and one other language, preferably a Germanic one. By the way, Occidental is the best of the bunch because its grammar has Germanic influences which make it possible to use it more easily without having to have such extensive knowledge of natural Romance languages.
The other approach, that of Lingua Franca Nova, to use Romance vocabulary with a creole grammar, in some ways has more merit because it is further from natural Romance languages and thus produces less drift, but unfortunately it does not work either as unless one is an absolute and seasoned expert in the language it is impossible to write without a massive degree of ambiguity, which is a drawback of its creole grammar. I tried again recently and failed. That is, Romance-based auxlangs have a choice between: (a) using difficult grammars and unreliable idioms which require extensive prior knowledge of various natural languages (often resulting in gibberish); or (b) dumbing down the grammar to that of a creole (not necessarily a bad strategy) which usually fails and usually produces a language which ultimately is equally or more ambiguous.
I'm tired of writing this post now. I give up. I leave you with this advice:
(1) Do not use any auxlang based primarily on Romance languages. My intention is to never do so again. This leaves only Esperanto, Lingwa de Planeta, Sambahsa and Frenkisch to choose from out of the most significant auxlangs.
(2) Do not use any auxlang based on an Interlingua-like process of averaging the vocabulary of related natural languages. This rules out Frenkisch*. This is because the same kind of Interlingua-like drift problems will occur and you will not be able to learn and use the language as a "standalone" language without needing to simultaneously study several natural languages.
(3) For the novelist, you need extensive vocabulary: this currently rules out Lingwa de Planeta, although it will get there eventually one day in the future. Lingwa de Planeta shows a lot of promise but is currently in an early a stage of its evolution, suitable only for short stories at this stage, not novels.
(4) For the novelist, you need extensive multi-lingual documentation and reference materials: this rules out Sambahsa, although one day hopefully it will have these things. However, possibly Sambahsa may still require too much knowledge of various natural languages to be used "standalone" without simultaneous study of natural languages; the jury is still out on that.
* Update 30 September 2011: I sincerely regret saying the above about Frenkisch. Now I understand that just as Interlingua is a useful language, so too could Frenkisch be a useful language. Frenkisch is a fine project of high quality and I am embarrassed now that I said such negative things about it here. Again, this was a consequence of my "magical thinking" than somehow a language could be learned to fluency in a few months. Now that I realise that learning any language to fluency takes years, Frenkisch appears to me to be a valuable linguistic resource and one which could grow into a viable international language with a little more development of its grammar in the years to come.
END OF UPDATE
This leaves the novelist with only one reasonable current choice: Esperanto. Please bear in mind I am not recommending Esperanto, because I do not speak Esperanto yet. However I am going to learn it. At this stage the most likely outcome is probably that I will also be disappointed by Esperanto and probably will choose not to write novels in it, but at least it is in with a chance. The most likely outcome is I will choose to use Afrikaans or Indonesian instead.
Well, that's it. My study plan for 2011 is:
Mondays, Thursdays: Afrikaans
Tuesdays, Fridays: Esperanto
Wednesdays, Saturdays: Indonesian
Any day (unrestricted): French, English
A few parting points:
(a) Occidental is a nice language fully capable of having novels written in it, but basically depends on the reader already speaking at least two European languages to be able to read it with minimal prior study; this is pointless since the language is not a "standalone" language but depends on knowledge of other languages. Were it massively popular I would write novels in it, and those novels would not be excessively ambiguous because idioms would have been established by popular use. However it is not massively popular and never will become so, because it requires too much knowledge of other languages at the current point in time at which its multi-lingual documentation is virtually non-existent.
(b) Occidental would be a better language if it had more non-Romance elements. Which is essentially what Sambahsa is, a very admirable language.
(c) An auxlang based very closely on a simplification of just one Romance language, rather than averaging several Romance languages, could work, since all the idioms could be unambiguously inherited from that single language. Thus, Basic Spanish something like Basic English. But I would not bother because languages like Afrikaans and Indonesian are fully capable and are easier.
(d) Esperanto will have to prove itself to me to be able to rival Afrikaans and Indonesian both in terms of power and ease. I am highly doubtful it will.
(e) At-sight languages are dead. Forget them. (An at-sight language is one designed to be comprehensible without prior study or with little prior study; while this sounds like a nice idea I now realise this is usually a fatal flaw since it utterly depends upon one having knowledge of certain natural languages, thus making the auxlang not a "standalone" language which one can study or use without having to simultaneously study other languages. Interlingua is the classic example of this and it suffers from the worst of the drawbacks of this, making it essentially inconsistent gibberish. The absurdity of this was recently driven home to me when I realised I can now read French more easily than reading Interlingua!)
Onward...
I think you're just burned out. I know the exact feeling though - you finish a translation, upload it somewhere, and get a comment or two or three. Auxlangs are by their very nature a hobby, not in that they aren't serious but in that they can only be done by people with free time. I've been meaning to do something with the translation myself but daily life calls and all my online activity has been directed towards things that bring immediate benefits - traffic, comments, etc.
ReplyDeleteThis is why Steve's auxlang epiphany is such an important thing to remember. There is a small group of people that agree with the idea of an IAL, and the vast majority of these are Esperantists. All the other languages are sharing this small piece of a pie that is itself a very small piece of another pie.
A few months back I decided to conduct a test where I signed up on a Canadian forum as a user that only used Occidental, in order to promote it as an inter-Canadian language. Just about everybody understood it, just about everybody voted the comments down. They understood it, and hated it. Many thought it was Italian. Very interesting.
Of course, I agree with Dave. Furthermore, Romance is so important that it can't be completely excluded. You should say "anything but a language relying too heavily on Romance".
ReplyDeleteOlivier
@Mithridates: Thanks for your comment, Dave. Yes, I am definitely tired and definitely disappointed, and it is true that in the last few days I went a little nuts as a result, and over-reacted, but I have calmed down now and am thinking clearly. I really do think there is more to this conclusion than mere burn-out.
ReplyDeleteIt is true to say that it some ways I have burned out and sheer exhaustion has led to a loss of perspective; that was certainly true over the past few days. However, I am not completely burned out, because if I were completely burned out then I would not be embarking not only on the continued study of three natural languages (Afrikaans, Indonesian, French) but also embarking on the study of yet another constructed language (Esperanto, which I looked at briefly early last year and by which I was very disappointed). Also, I have successfully produced a good literary translation of Occidental, 5700 words long, and pretty much believe I could go on and translate the whole novel over the next couple of years, with a little continued help from you guys, if I wanted to.
So:
(1) I am still heavily committed to learning new languages and really happy to be doing so;
(2) I have demonstrated success with a constructed language and I am moving on from it not out of abject failure but because I believe that using that particular language (Occidental) requires the student to simultaneously study natural European languages, and this is too onerous a requirement. The five languages I am continuing to use can all be studied absolutely independently and do not require the student to simultaneously study any other language or to have prior knowledge of any other language: Afrikaans, Indonesian, Esperanto, French, English.
There are plenty of words of Latin origin in all of these languages, but used in such a way that one does not have to have knowledge of other Romance languages. The real killer for me was discovering recently that French is easier to read than Interlingua! French, which previously seemed impossibly difficult to me to read, is becoming easier to read at an accelerating pace, exponentially easier and easier. Long sentences in Interlingua novels and short stories remain opaque and mysterious even if I look up every word and struggle for half an hour to decode them.
Something is wrong when I, so interested in constructed languages, elect to study three natural languages (Afrikaans, Indonesian, French) and only one constructed language (Esperanto). Romance-based constructed languages simply have not delivered on their advertised promises of ease, other than perhaps Occidental but even that was no walk in the park. Afrikaans is a total breeze and a joy by comparison and even Indonesian seems easier despite its utterly alien vocabulary and grammar. So, really, I am happy with my conclusion: no more primarily Romance-based auxlangs for me. They don't work, or in the few cases in which they do work (Occidental) they require too much knowledge of natural languages (at least in the absence of extensive multi-lingual references, in the case of Occidental; in the case of Interlingua, regardless of such extensive references).
@cafaristeir: Well, yes, I should probably say "anything but a language relying too heavily on Romance languages" but I think that would too much dilute the important message.
ReplyDeleteFor example, Afrikaans is full of words from Latin, but it is absolutely not a Romance language; it is clearly a Germanic language. I was doing some Afrikaans study today and it is such a joy and delight and rekindles my enthusiasm for learning languages; these are not the feelings of a man who is burned-out of learning languages in general. They are the feelings of a man who is burned-out specifically of learning Romance-based auxlangs, because he is very disappointed with either the results (every Romance-based auxlang except Occidental) or the onerous requirements on the student or reader to know natural languages (in the case of Occidental).
To be honest, overall I do not even see Ido as an improvement over Esperanto, despite its many good features; I basically now see Ido as a step in the wrong direction from Esperanto. I don't like Esperanto much but at least it does things in its own weird and synthetic manner, like forming common adjectives by sticking "mal-" on the front of other adjectives rather than by asking students to memorise the Romance-language norms for paired adjectives. I still have huge concerns that Esperanto may fundamentally be too ambiguous (due to "affix hell") but looking at the use of affixes in Indonesian is somewhat reducing my fears about this. Who knows? I'll give it a try...
Anyway, thanks very much for your comments. Perhaps you are right and I have just become mentally unstable from too much auxlang study.
I'm a teapot...
I'm a teapot...
I'm a teapot...
(Tim Brooke-Taylor quote from "The Goodies")
I have always read your blog with the greatest of interest, and I've learned a lot from it.
ReplyDeleteWhat really struck me this time was the number of times you state that you are looking for an unambiguous grammar (among other things). Well, did you ever seriously look at Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/)? Unambiguouty is up there at the top of its design criteria!
I'm not suggesting you should use it for writing a novel, although several have been translated (e.g. see Alice in Wonderland: http://lojban.org/~rlpowell/alis/alis.html). But I certainly would like you to be aware of it. It deserves I think, at least your respect.
In my estimation, there are probably several hundred lojbanists world-wide. The dictionary has several thousand words. More importantly, a strict set of rules allows you to create your own compound words if the dictionary is insufficient. And...oh,yes, no Romance! Lojban is based on predicate logic.
totus
Hi Robert
ReplyDeleteGood luck with your studies Robert.
I think that you may be underestimating the popularity of Esperanto, however.
The study course http://www.lernu.net is now receiving 120,000 hits per month.
That can't be bad :)
@Anonymous: Thanks for the suggestion. I will take a look at Lojban, not so much from the point of view of seriously considering writing any major literature in it, but to learn new ideas from looking at a language which takes a completely different approach. A very interesting suggestion, thanks.
ReplyDelete@Brian Barker: It is great to hear there are many people studying Esperanto, I am happy to hear that. And indeed, now I am one of them!
Just to clarify for readers, however, a "hit" is basically a request for a single web page; think of it as a single click of a mouse-button while doing a language lesson. So if the average person clicks their mouse-button 20 times while doing a language lesson, then 120,000 hits divided by 20 equals approximately 6000 users per month. Now, assuming the typical Esperanto student does four lessons per month on average, then 6000 divided by 4 equals approximately 1500 unique users (each one visiting the site four times a month).
So, in summary, 120000 hits per month probably equates to not more than 1500 people learning Esperanto.
While that is not a huge figure it is still very impressive. That is a lot of students for a constructed language!
Nevertheless I am still of the opinion that the number of reasonably fluent Esperanto speakers in the world, speaking in orders of magnitude (powers of 10), is probably more than 1000, less than 100000, and closest to 10000. If it were much more than that there would be, proportionately, many Australian speakers and I would have met some of them in my day-to-day life, but I've never met anyone who speaks Esperanto in my entire life, so there must be very few in Australia.
However, I'm not saying this to knock Esperanto, and I'm very happy to see the lernu.net site is busy.
I look forward to being able to read novels in Esperanto one day: there are many of them published already and it will be a pleasure to try reading them. It is very nice to be learning a language which already has a well-established literature.
Try to contact a person with whom you have some affinity
ReplyDeletein Skype:
Franciska Toubale sunamanto (?)
Robert esperanto_rules (Hobart)
Rolf Ahrens rolf_a (?)
Matt Maguire ma3xiu1 (Sydney)
The next persons could also help you:
Delegitoj en Aŭstralio
La ĉefdelegito de UEA: S-ino Katarína Steele
Adreso: 143 Caulfield Av, 5039 Clarence Gardens SA, tel.h.: 08 8367 5713, retadreso: katja.steele@gmail.com
La delegitoj (D), vicdelegitoj (VD), fakdelegitoj (FD) kaj junularaj delegitoj (JD).
Entute 11 personoj.
Adelaide
D kaj FD (vegetarismo) S-ro Robert Felby, emerito.
Adreso: Adelaide SA, 6 Dorset St, 5019, tel.h.: (08) 8242 1460
FD (gastigado) S-ro Max Wearing.
Adreso: Adelaide SA, 81/9 East Tce, 5000, tel.h.: (08) 8359 3375
Bendigo
D vakas
FD (medicino) D-ro Sandor Monostori, kuracisto.
Adreso: Bendigo Central VIC, PO Box 1097, 3552, tel.h.: (03) 9525 5794
Brisbane
D vakas
FD (muziko) S-ino Kay J Andersen, em. muzikinstruisto.
Adreso: Moorooka QLD, PO Box 186, 4105, tel.h.: +fakso (07) 3848 4428
Gillies Plains
D vakas
(Ĉefdelegito) S-ino Katarína Steele, instruistino.
Adreso: Clarence Gardens SA, 143 Caulfield Av, 5039, tel.h.: 08 8367 5713
Melbourne
D S-ro Svetislav Kanački, emerito.
Adreso: Mount Waverly VIC, 72 Jubilee St, 3149, tel.h.: (03) 9807 9573
Oakey
D S-ro Paul Alastir Green, em. bestkuracisto.
Adreso: Oakey QLD, 44 Toowoomba Rd, 4401, tel.h.: (07) 4691 1238
Perth
D S-ino Vera Esther Payne, em. instruisto.
Adreso: Floreat WA, 36 Donegal Rd, 6014, tel.h.: (08) 9387 1520
Sydney
D kaj FD (adventismo, trikado) S-ino Margaret M Chaldecott, ekssekretario.
Adreso: Lindfield NSW, 16 Grosvenor Rd, 2070, tel.h.: (02) 9924 2644
Terrigal
D S-ino Julie L Regal, emerito.
Adreso: Terrigal NSW, 10 Ridgeview Close, 2260, tel.h.: (02) 4385 1330
Whyalla
D vakas
FD (bahaismo, Rotario) S-ro Paul Joseph Desailly, instruisto.
Adreso: Whyalla SA, Baha'i Center 50 Bevan Cres, 5608, tel.h.: (04) 4851 5234
@Remush: Dankon!
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for supplying the contact details of Australian delegates of the World Esperanto Association who might be able to assist me with learning to write literature in Esperanto.
For the benefit of readers who may not have heard of this organisation, its name in Esperanto is "Universala Esperanto-Asocio" (UEA). The website of the UEA can be reached at:
http://www.uea.org/
There is also an Australian Esperanto Association at:
http://aea.esperanto.org.au/
Actually, I was not aware that there were so many delegates of the UEA in Australia.
Thanks,
Robert
Vous devriez entrer en contact avec votre compatriote Trevor Steele qui a écrit plusieurs romans et recueils de nouvelles en espéranto (il est le mari de Katarina Steele dont le nom figure en haut de la liste des délégués de UEA, ci-dessus).
ReplyDeleteFélicitations pour votre blog qui est passionnant.
Gilles Hutereau (Belgique)
@Gilles: Merci, Gilles. C'est très intéressant. Merci pour cette information.
ReplyDelete