Sunday, 4 September 2011

"Reveni, Interlingua. Toto es pardonate!"
"Come back, Interlingua. All is forgiven!"

Interlingua          dictionario          grammatica

Hodie io legeva alcun paginas ex Le Defuncte Mattia Pascal de Luigi Pirandello, traducite per Pian Boalt. Iste libro es le plus difficile del libros in mi parve bibliotheca de libros in interlingua. Le traduction vermente meraviliose e bellissime del polyglotta Pian Boalt es diabolicamente difficile ma vale le pena. Il es como on lege le texte italiano original. Il es como on ascolta le voce de Pirandello e anque su riso sapente e jocose. Ita, reveni, Interlingua. Toto es pardonate!

English

Today I read a few pages from The Late Mattia Pascal by Luigi Pirandello, translated by Pian Bolt. This book is the most difficult of the books in my small library of books in interlingua. The genuinely marvellous and most beautiful translation by the polyglot Pian Boalt is diabolically difficult but worth the pain. It is as if you are reading the original Italian text. It is as if you are listening to the voice of Pirandello and also his wise and playful laughter. So, come back, Interlingua. All is forgiven!


I have very recently come to understand that, for literary purposes, we should not be talking about one year to learn international auxiliary languages (IALs or auxlangs) but five years. I now believe that IALs should properly be called five-year languages (5YLs).


After five years of serious part-time study you can expect to be fluent enough to read sophisticated literature and to use the language well in general. Although this sounds like a long time, it actually isn't. It is realistic. The advantage of a good auxlang is not that you can learn it miraculously quickly (unless it happens by chance to closely resemble your native language) but that after you have invested five years in studying it you can expect to use it much more accurately, more correctly, and more easily than a native language. In other words, after five years seriously studying Interlingua or Esperanto, with a good teacher or with good learning materials, you can expect to speak the language well enough to communicate very effectively. Whereas after five years seriously studying English you will probably not communicate very effectively (unless speaking it every day) and you will probably always feel inferior to native English speakers.


For me this is the breakthrough. It took me more than a year and a half to realise that what has completely sabotaged me from succeeding until now has been the unrealistic expectation that I should be able to learn and fluently use an auxlang in a short period of time such as a few months or one, two or even three years. Incorrectly, I had assumed that an auxlang which would take longer than that to learn would not be worth learning. Incorrectly, I had assumed that if readers could not learn an auxlang in just a few months they would then not read a novel written in an auxlang. Both incorrect assumptions. I am now convinced that my previous belief that about three years is necessary to achieve fluency in Esperanto or Interlingua was a gross underestimate. We should be talking about five years, approximately half a decade on average, as being required to learn them well.


I think the propaganda, especially by Esperantists but also by those promoting Interlingua and other languages, which loudly trumpets that one can learn to use these languages after very little study and in very short timeframes, is an enormous strategic mistake by the auxlang community. That propaganda nearly made me abandon auxlangs forever because I became bitterly disappointed and disillusioned that I was not able to get big results in one year. The propaganda gave me unrealistic expectations and when those unrealistic expectations were not met, I quit. As indeed I presume most students of auxlangs similarly quit.


I even incorrectly reached the conclusion that all auxlangs based primarily on Romance languages were a waste of time because one could not effectively use them without learning countless Romance-language idioms; it is correct that one must learn countless Romance-language idioms and that doing so indeed does take several years, but it is not correct that therefore such a language is a waste of time. On the contrary, it means that at the end of that five years of study not only can you understand Interlingua but also you can understand a considerable amount of written Spanish, Portuguese and Italian. In fact you can even have simple conversations with speakers of those languages. Just because something takes five years does not mean it is a waste of time. I understand that now.


Incidentally, Esperanto has its own countless idioms to learn and to learn it well enough to write a good novel would I am sure also take about five years. In other words, to truly master any language takes at least about five years; good auxlangs are able to deliver mastery in that timeframe whereas most natural languages probably require ten or fifteen years to really master.


Anyway, back to the subject of Interlingua...


Come back, Interlingua. All is forgiven!


I no longer need Interlingua to deliver results to me in one year. If it delivers results in five years, that is fine. I have given up on the "magical thinking", on the "impossible dream" that somehow readers around the world could read an auxlang novel after just a few months of study. As much as I would love that to be possible, it is not possible. My journey so far in the world of auxlangs has taught me that much. On that dream I must give up. But there are many people around the world who are motivated to communicate internationally and a good number of those people would be willing to invest five years of study in a good auxlang if they judged that the language concerned could be useful to them. Interlingua is an unusual case since, somewhat contrary to what I have just said, highly educated speakers of popular Romance languages could probably learn Interlingua for the purpose of reading a novel in less than a year, because Interlingua so closely resembles their own languages that there is relatively little for them to learn; for others it remains a five-year language, however.


The spelling of Interlingua needs to be reformed. Its difficult spelling and inconsistent pronunciation is a significant problem, although ten times less so than English. However, I have decided to have faith that at some point in the future professional linguists will probably be invited to reform the spelling of Interlingua, since we have recently seen official spelling reforms of French, German and Portuguese which are all source languages for Interlingua! Sooner or later the Union Mundial de Interlingua (UMI) will wake up and come to its senses and realise that if it ever wants to attract a large number of students it will need to reform the spelling; the current collateral orthography however is not suitable. The eventual reform will probably eliminate most but not all doubled consonants but will probably preserve the final -e of most adjectives (the collateral orthography goes too far in removing these) and will probably either mark stress with an acute accent or will standardise pronunciation such that stress is entirely regular. Eventually we will end up with an Interlingua almost but not quite as easy to spell as Spanish; a little extra difficulty is justifiable for international recognition. Anyway, for now I will use the traditional orthography of Interlingua until such time as professional linguists or officials of the UMI carry out a reform. Once they have finally done so it will be a simple matter to convert manuscripts from the traditional orthography to the reformed orthography.


Yes, Interlingua is difficult. Yes, it has a problem with drift towards the native language of the writer or speaker. However, for literature this is a double-edged sword. Suitably annotated with explanations for any obscure idiomatic expressions used, an Interlingua novel has the power to let the user experience the literary flavour of a natural Romance language without learning the natural language. This will be difficult for the reader but still easier than learning Spanish, Portuguese or Italian. And I for one am enjoying Pirandello in Interlingua enormously, although ironically its extreme difficulty was a major factor in me previously quitting.


Spoken Interlingua, as spoken in the Scandinavian style, is easy to understand. Despite its somewhat diabolical spelling, Interlingua works very well when spoken aloud. I find understanding Radio Interlingua quite easy and I was even able to clearly understand a recent video interview of participants at a recent Interlingua conference in Bulgaria. Written Interlingua in the Scandinavian style is not very difficult either. Five years should be ample time to master that kind of general conversational use and general technical writing. Written Interlingua in the style used by native speakers of Romance languages is generally difficult.


So, I am enjoying reading Interlingua literature but I do not expect to be able to read the most sophisticated novels, such as Pirandello's, with complete and effortless ease for another four years yet. At that time however I expect to probably be able to read a little Spanish, Portuguese and Italian as a result and also to be able to make myself understood in basic conversation with speakers of those languages. I also expect to be able to start writing really well, including to start writing really good novels in Interlingua, around 2015.


In the meantime, the recent incipient revival of Mondial, a very similar language to Interlingua but considerably easier in spelling and pronunciation, and with a slightly more precise grammar, is of great interest. The UMI had better hurry up and get serious about spelling reform or they may start to lose out against competitors like Mondial which might as it gains popularity cause users of Interlingua, including myself, to jump ship to Mondial or something similar. The UMI should not make the mistake of assuming that Mondial will fail as Interlingue Occidental did; unlike Occidental, the Mondial language was never really greatly promoted and has thus never really failed. With a little promotion it could conceivably reach the same number of users as Interlingua (about two hundred) within a few years and, unhindered by excessively difficult spelling and pronunciation, could quite conceivably overtake Interlingua in popularity, especially if it were strategically promoted in Asia, which is quite likely since its current promoter speaks fluent Korean. Interlingua by comparison, with its current orthography, is a very difficult proposition for promotion in Asia. Anyway, it's great to see Mondial rising again.


The other thing to bear in mind is that, on a five-year timeframe of study, once upcoming 'world languages' like Lingwa de Planeta and Sambahsa have proper textbooks available they may become very viable alternatives for the novelist; these are not artificial languages like Esperanto but are similar to natural languages either conceptually or in vocabulary and are likely to be relatively attractive to a global public, especially given their world vocabularies.


Compared to Mondial, the chief (and possibly only temporary) advantage of Interlingua is that it has an established body of literature which is enjoyable to read. I look forward to an official spelling reform being announced as soon as possible, so that it becomes easier and more enjoyable to write as well.


I wish every international auxiliary language ongoing success.


But for now, I am really enjoying reading Interlingua.


Interlingua, all is forgiven.

11 comments:

  1. Sellamat Robert !

    It is always so stimulating to read your insights !
    I think the time required to learn a language varies according to different parameters like proximity between the languages already known by the learner and the target language, degree of immersion, etc.
    However - and here I concur with your point of view - there is a minimum time that no learner (except humans with a computer-like brain) can ignore. Even the most simple conlang needs a minimum amount of vocabulary. Knowing a grammar without vocabulary is like having a car with no gasoline : it is useless. That's why I had written elsewhere that grammars that one can learn in a few hours/days are almost of no use. IMO, every human needs at least a few weeks (in most cases a couple of months) to become familiar with a reasonable share of wordstock.

    More peculiarly about Interlingua : I just fear that Interlingua (like Interlingue) may be easier to read than to write. I have never properly studied Interlingua but can read the excerpt above because it is very close to French and other Romance languages. But remember you had reached a quite fluent level in Interlingue and that, when you had translated the beginning of la Chartreuse de Parme, the main problems you had encountered were issues pertaining to the syntactical use of verbs. Because of the Romance closeness (not to mention "drift"...), the available material did not provide us with clear guidelines and we had to have recourse to comparison with the major Romance languages (when they showed similar solutions) or to rules of thumb. As Interlingua has better resources, I suppose you just have to click to find the solution but I think a few general guidelines would be better than a specific rule for nearly each verb. Looking at Dave's blog, I have the feeling that Mondial (too) strongly relies on Romance languages (especially French !) and might not be a panacea, especially since its ressources must be scarce.
    (Apparently, Heimer had written another book : about a French poet of the Middle Ages !)
    However, I am sure that with a regular work, all auxlangs can be mastered in less than 5 years.
    Enjoy the Interlingua literature !

    Olivier

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  2. Hello. Nice to meet you. I'm Lance.

    Your auxlang journey seems very reminiscent of my own. I've circled the auxlang world in search of the "perfect" language to learn and promote, but it just doesn't exist (as far as I can tell). But thanks for the revelation! It's helping me to see auxlangs in a new light. I actually find the idea of taking one's time to learn an auxlang as if it were a natural language more inspiring than the get-fluent-quick scheme.

    For now, I'm on the Mondial wagon, and I'm excited to see where it'll go.

    Lance K.

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  3. You are quite fickle, Robert.

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  4. @cafaristeir: Thanks, Olivier.

    Yes, if you did the mathematics of the average amount of time required to learn one word, multiplied by the number of words needed for reasonable fluency, plus the average amount of time required to learn one grammatical rule, multiplied by the number of grammatical rules in the language, plus the average amount of time required to learn an idiomatic expression, multiplied by the number of idiomatic expressions needed for fluency, plus the time required to learn the alphabet (especially if your native language does not use the Latin alphabet but some other script or Asian characters) and pronunciation, plus the time required to learn cultural concepts present in the language but not familiar to you, and assuming you will study 30 minutes per day, four days per week, then you are looking at years not months for the average person to gain fluency, unless the auxlang is extremely similar to your native language. (As you know, I like Sambahsa's powerful grammar which overall helps to reduce the number of idiomatic expressions to memorise.) Anyway, why rush something which is a pleasure? Learning a language is like learning to play a musical instrument: it takes years but is worthwhile.

    You are absolutely correct that Interlingua is much, much more difficult to write than to read. However this might be a benefit to me in the long term since hopefully I will be able to write for Romance-language speakers who maybe would only have to study Interlingua for one year to *enjoy* reading an Interlingua novel. I could not get that benefit with Esperanto.

    Mondial does seem a bit more heavily influenced by French, doesn't it? It seems perhaps even more heavily influenced by French than Occidental, but without the Germanic elements of Occidental. For this reason I wonder if Mondial might actually be even better suited than Interlingua for translating French novels into an auxlang. Too early to say, I guess.

    I agree, Mondial is likely to have some of the same problems as Interlingua does; it will not solve all the issues.

    Keep working on that Sambahsa textbook so Sambahsa can take the next step in popularity. Actually, something which looks a bit like the Mondial textbook only bigger would be great. My suggestion is that you should definitely write it in French, your first language, to ensure it is absolutely correct and precise in every respect. Then it can be translated into English later. Better than having any mistakes in the primary source textbook for the language. (For example I am highly impressed by what I have seen of the really exact precision of the Mondial textbook; it seems very unambiguous indeed.) You could for example publish it on lulu.com or some similar print-on-demand service until a traditional publisher accepts it for publication (which I am sure will occur one day).

    All the best,
    Robert

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  5. @Lance Matthew K: Hi Lance. Nice to meet you too.

    Yes, learning a language slowly is a pleasure whereas trying to learn one quickly is just stressful and leads to disappointment, which is exactly what I experienced. Now that I have taken the pressure off myself and decided to just proceed slowly, one step at a time, I am having a lot more fun.

    I agree it is very exciting to see Mondial being reborn. I am very happy to see the online French-Mondial dictionary is now up to the letter C. I will most probably be getting personally involved in the Mondial revival myself to some extent, at least to the extent of trying to write a few short texts in it to compare it to Interlingua. Great to hear you are learning Mondial!

    All the best,
    Robert

    @anonymous: Your comment is a very fair and accurate one! Indeed, I am very fickle. However, so I suspect are many if not most students of auxiliary languages. Many of us tend to jump from language to language. I think part of the problem is the propaganda I mentioned in this post, which encourages auxlang students to believe they can be fluent in a small amount of time; this sets the student up to be disappointed, at which time he or she will fly off to the next language, and the next language, each time hoping the propaganda will be true and each time finding it is untrue. I think if students are told right at the beginning that they should expect it to take five years to become fluent, their behaviour would be less fickle and they would tend to stick with a language and learn it well, providing that is that they found they genuinely like the style of the language concerned. I also tried a lot of different languages looking for the style or flavour of language I most preferred; that part of my changing from language to language was not fickle but rather was driven by curiosity and exploration, which is a different thing to being fickle. However, you are quite correct, I am very fickle. I do think I will continue to learn Interlingua (or a very closely related language such as Mondial) for some time now, hopefully for another four years. My fickle nature is in future more likely to be expressed by simultaneously looking for a second auxlang to learn rather than by abandoning Interlingua/Mondial.

    But, I am fickle, so anything could happen...

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  6. Learning time: yours is a good point because it's good to remember that the ultimate goal of an IAL is to be taught in schools worldwide, which usually means a few years anyway. The appeal of something like Mondial or Interlingua or Sambahsa or any of the rest is that instead of learning French/Spanish for the necessary three to six years and ending up with a faulty command of basic grammar after all that, with these languages one can expect to be fluent by the end. Our French classes in Canada were largely about verb conjugation (and much of it irregular), and since that hardly exists in an IAL we would have gotten straight to using it instead.

    Long weekend is over so the Mondial dictionary will proceed at a slightly slower pace but it should be done in about a week or so.

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  7. @ Mr. Winter: ;)

    "I think the propaganda... which loudly trumpets that one can learn to use these languages after very little study and in very short timeframes... is an enormous strategic mistake... That propaganda nearly made me abandon auxlangs forever... indeed I presume most students of auxlangs similarly quit."

    You hit it right on the mark. No reason to not to agree with you! :)

    You are an amazing guy! I wish we could have a coffee together someday! ;)

    Hmm... five years, that means I could give Sambahsa another try! :)

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  8. @Demian: Thanks for the kind words!

    On the same topic, here is something to imagine:

    Imagine that instead of promising instant results, Interlingua or Esperanto or Sambahsa informed students that the standard period of study to gain reasonable fluency is five years. Now, further imagine that for each of those languages there was a 300-page textbook for Year 1, another 300-page textbook for Year 2, and so on, so that you could purchase five beautiful hardback textbooks which lead you through learning the language, including a representative selection of its literature, year by year. Maybe a companion volume would contain the complete grammar. And of course you would be able to buy nice hardback dictionaries and novels and magazines to read. Wouldn't you be willing to invest five years? I would. It really tells you that the Academy that supervises a language is serious about that language if they have created a coherent five-year course (which incidentally could be taught at university, for example). This is the sort of thing which would make the European Union stand up and take notice.

    Anyway, I think the above 'thought experiment' just goes to show the strategic mistake as already discussed, of pretending that these languages can be learned to fluency in a few months. I really hope somebody from the Union Mundial de Interlingua is reading this and implements this idea!

    Regarding Sambahsa: yes, absolutely. As soon as we admit to ourselves that about five years is the necessary period of study to truly master any auxlang, then Sambahsa suddenly starts to look highly competitive. Yes, it is a lot of work and it will never be an 'at-sight' language. But you get a lot of return on investment for all that hard work: precision, brevity, power, literary expressiveness, flexible orthography good for incorporating words from many sources, not just from Romance languages.

    The main reason I am not currently continuing to learn Sambahsa is because its documentation is still not good enough compared to its complexity. Olivier, if you are reading this please close your eyes and don't read the next sentence. It is great to see the big improvements which Olivier has already made to the documentation but he really needs to realise that to go to the next stage of popularity and establish a keen group of active users he is going to need to write a serious textbook, perfectly edited, probably in his native language (French), probably about 300 pages long, and so well written that getting it published in hard-copy via a traditional publishing firm (say, a university press) would be achievable (although self-publishing would suffice); then I will start using Sambahsa again and so I suspect will many others. Okay, Olivier, you can open your eyes again... the sentence is over! But seriously, Sambahsa is excellent and on this kind of five-year timeframe it becomes a practical choice.

    I do like the easy readability of Interlingua for Romance-language speakers, however, which gives it a certain advantage in that niche market.

    All the best,
    Robert

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  9. Sellamat quantims !

    I suppose I can speak about Sambahsa ;-)
    I think that a good level in Sambahsa (i.e. to be able to read in near fluency texts written in Sambahsa) can be gotten in less than 5 years ! There are several things:
    - the basic grammar (declensions/conjugation) is of course a prerequisite. That depends from the person and the time dedicated. This can range from two weeks (with intensive exercises) to several months. And everyone is different. Some people like exercises (like Dave, who did it two years ago) while others are not afraid of the 70 pages full grammar with no help. Steve Rice learnt it this way and can now write very good Sambahsa.
    - In this few weeks/few months time, a basic amount of vocabulary is learnt.
    - For the rest (specialized vocabulary/optional grammar features), it is like any other natlang : you learn it when needed, through the years. For example, I explained this morning to Dmitry that our French simple past tense is no more a "living" tense : we learn it at school and use it for written purposes.
    Just to make a remark about French grammar after what Dave said : As a native speaker of French, I don't know how French primers are organized but I think that French conjugation can be mastered properly through levels.
    At the beginning, one has to concentrate on the auxilary verbs with very ireegular conjugations like être, avoir, aller. This effort is rewarded by the fact that these verbs permit to form a lot of tenses.
    After that, one shall concentrate on the basic tenses of the most common irregular verbs. Fortunately, the pronounced forms are often similar in the singular, like : "je prends/tu prends/il prend" = [pra~].
    At this level, the French you speak is not yet perfect but you have the level of a child. You can speak and be understood and the next levels are no more unattainable obstacles.
    To end about this with an anecdot, I really watched on the French TV the interview of a native speaker of English, a rich man who collects paintings and objects about Queen Victoria. He spoke nearly perfect French but always said *peigné instead "peint" (painted)...

    So, back to Sambahsa's 13600 words... Of course, no-one has to learn them by heart because no-one needs them all. From time to time, I still encounter French words unknown to me. When you led me to re-read the first Chapter of La Chartreuse de Parme, I didn't remember anymore what is a "sigisbée" is. In my whole life, I have never met a cicisbeo (or, at least, some man who claimed to be one...). The Sambahsa vocabulary is like a (cost-free) supermarket : you take what you need. "Kurmiaend" may interest you as an Australian, while you'll immediately forget "kos".
    So, now I need to close my eyes...
    About the material, I just can say that all of it is freely available on-line, whether on the pbworks or on Scribd : http://www.scribd.com/doc/52710027/Sambahsa-Reference-Document
    Sometimes, I try to imagine a new kind of textbook. There are existing models, like the famous "Assimil" primers in French, but they are not only transposable from language to language.
    And for the moment, I must concentrate on my job search...

    Khauris credie/khamsi !

    Olivier

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  10. Eugene Carmelo Pedro9 October 2011 02:40

    Hello! I would like to ask where I can get good resources to learn interlingua.

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  11. @Eugene Carmelo Pedro: Sorry for the delay in responding. I have been away.

    The best resources for learning Interlingua can be found by contacting the Union Mundial pro Interlingua (UMI) at:

    http://www.interlingua.com

    There you will also find dictionaries and grammars which can be used online.

    If you already speak a Romance language fluently, then you will find Interlingua very easy.

    For others, it is surprisingly difficult and may take several years to master; however, in my opinion it is well worth learning and highly educational. The most important thing when learning Interlingua is not to expect it to be easy; expect it to be difficult, then you will keep going and not give up. It is however significantly easier than most natural Romance languages.

    A good place to start is with the book by Ingvar Stenström, entitled "Interlingua - Instrumento moderne de communication international" which is available in several languages, from here:

    http://www.lulu.com/

    For learning to understand spoken Interlingua, I recommend the excellent "Radio Interlingua":

    http://www.interlingua.com/radio

    Some more helpful introductory information for English speakers can be found here:

    http://www.interlingua.us/

    A comprehensive list of resources is here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlingua

    For further guidance, I recommend contacting the UMI directly, as they have a good range of books available.

    All the best,
    Robert

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